Hungary makes historic apology for its role in the Holocaust (2014) Hungary still murders Romani people

Hungary makes historic apology for its role in the Holocaust

Hungary, 27.1.2014 14:41, (ROMEA)
--ilustrační foto--

–ilustrační foto–

Speaking at the United Nations in New York, Hungary has apologized for the first time ever for the role the country played in the Holocaust. News agency MTI reported today that the apology was made last Thursday by the Hungarian Ambassador to the UN, Csaba Körösi.

“Until today at this forum, no one has ever expressed, on behalf of the Hungarian state, its responsibility for its role in the Holocaust,” MTI quoted Ambassador Körösi as saying. The ambassador went on to say he would be making two separate statements of Hungarian responsibility that Thursday.

The ambassador made the apology during an event held at the UN on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the Holocaust in Hungary, whose victims were Jewish and Romani people. He then repeated it at the opening of an exhibition called “Remembrance of the Holocaust in Hungary” which was put together by various organizations with the participation of the Hungarian mission to the UN.

“We owe the victims an apology because the Hungarian state was guilty of the Holocaust, on the one hand because the state did not manage to protect its citizens from annihilation, and on the other hand because it aided their mass murder and provided financial resources for it,” Körösi said during a press conference at the New York headquarters of the United Nations to launch a series of events dedicated to the Holocaust. Hungary is commemorating the 70th anniversary this year of the transport of more than 430 000 Hungarian Jews to the Nazi death camps, deportations that began shortly after the German invasion of the country.

The problem of anti-Semitism is currently alive again in Hungary due to the controversial ultra-right Jobbik movement there. Its members reject Hungary’s responsibility for the murder of Jewish people during WWII and are notorious for making anti-Semitic declarations.

Recently the government of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán generated even more bad blood with a plan to erect a large monument in Budapest to be unveiled on the anniversary of the German occupation of Hungary in March 1944. Representatives of Hungary’s Jewish communities protested the move, which critics consider part of efforts to obscure the responsibility of the former representatives of Hungary and its local security forces at the time for the deportation of the Jews.

ČTK, translated by Gwendolyn Albert
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Hungary: Life in prison for murdering Romani people

9.5.2015 14:14

Yesterday the Associated Press reported that a Hungarian appeals court has upheld the sentencing of four men responsible for attacks on Romani people during which six individuals, including a five-year-old boy, died in 2008 and 2009. Three perpetrators were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole in 2013 and the appeals court has now agreed with that verdict.

The court also upheld the original 13-year sentence for the fourth man involved. According to the indictment, the three perpetrators attacked Romani settlements near small villages in central and eastern Hungary from July 2008 to August 2009, setting Romani dwellings on fire and shooting people dead as they fled.

There were reportedly nine such attacks during which the perpetrators used firearms, grenades, and Molotov cocktails. The fourth defendant drove the getaway car during the group’s last two attacks.

The racist violence shocked the entire country and led to accusations that the police were not sufficiently protecting members of the Romani minority. In addition to the fatalities, five Romani people were seriously injured during these anti-Romani pogroms.

According to the indictment, the men shot 78 rounds of ammunition, threw 11 Molotov cocktails and endangered 55 people total. The victims are still feeling the consequences of the attacks to this day.

As the sister of a 45-year-old woman who was murdered by one attack in the village of Kisleta said, their 81-year-old mother “still cries three times a day” over the attack that took her daughter’s life. The victim’s 13-year-old daughter was also seriously wounded when the village was assaulted.

The group of culprits was arrested on 21 August 2009 in the town of Debrecen. In the indictment, the prosecutor said the perpetrators were motivated by racial hatred during all of their crimes and prepared their attacks “with military precision” because they wanted to terrorize the entire Romani community.

ČTK, translated by Gwendolyn Albert
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Remembering the dead in Hungary: An example of civic engagement

Remembering the dead in Hungary: An example of civic engagement

It’s impossible to detach public history and collective memory from contemporary politics. How a society portrays the past is determined by current realities, contemporary values or interests, as well as the dominant, “preferred” narratives of history. But the government and public institutions don’t have a monopoly over the past ; where civic engagement is strong, grassroots organizations and local activists have the agency to alter the dominant historical narrative or, indeed, offer a new one altogether. When I was in Budapest a couple of weeks ago, I witnessed two striking examples of how a sense of civic engagement can influence the politics of memory.

The "alternative" Holocaust memorial in Budapest's Freedom Square/Szabadság Tér. Photo: Christopher Adam.

I often tell friends who are planning to visit Budapest, that the Hungarian capital’s most important and most telling monument is an alternative Holocaust memorial established in Freedom Square (Szabadság tér), just over a year ago, when Prime Minister Viktor Orbán government began constructing a monstrous monument commemorating Hungary’s occupation by Nazi Germany and portraying the country as a passive, innocent victim of the Germans. A group of remarkably dedicated activists erected their own “makeshift” monument consisting of photographs of “ordinary” victims, personal mementos, shoes, votive candles, flowers and rocks. These activists communicate and organize through Facebook. Not only do they now form a coherent community, but they are starting to redefine Freedom Square. Anyone can add to the memorial and it changes from month-to-month. In stark contrast to the grandiose and static bronze heroes on horseback, this monument is modest, but it’s also dynamic and a powerful example of how to challenge (and deconstruct) the grand narrative of history.

Alternative Holocaust memorial in Freedom Square. Photo: Christopher Adam.

The only reason this monument has remained untouched by Hungarian authorities–who are distinctly unsympathetic to its message–is thanks to the commitment of about three dozen activists who are present each and every day in the square. They hand out multilingual information sheets to tourists, they are a sign of constant resistance to the ever-present police officers, who linger in pairs, around the largely abandoned government monstrosity that looms over the votive candles and mementos. It’s critical to note, that since the government monument–situated about three meters away from the alternative memorial–was constructed without any input from the affected community and from historical “stakeholders,” it attracts no interest, respect nor attention. Passers-by only see a living, organic, grassroots reflection of history that now partially encircles it. And–most importantly–these organizers, students, historians, essayists, pensioners, children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are an overt sign of resistant. One of the regulars in Freedom Square, actor Róbert Garai, won a grant last year from the Hungarian government, as part of a series of official Holocaust commemorations. Mr. Garai handed back the circa $10,000 that he received, in order to protest the government’s blatant falsification of the country’s World War II history.

The alternative Holocaust memorial in Freedom Square/Szabadság tér. Photo: Christopher Adam.

During the winter months and in the early spring, twice a week the “guardians” of this living and ever-changing memorial organize public talks on issues related to the Holocaust, Hungary’s responsibility in the murder of 600,000 Hungarian Jews, contemporary antisemitism and racism, as well as the broader question of civil liberties in Hungary. Organizers spend a half hour assembling a tent in the middle of the square for these talks, and then another half hour removing it. As darkness falls on Freedom Square, you could hear the buzz of drills and hand-held tools disassembling the tent, while a handful of participants linger and quietly reflect in front of the glowing votives.

Public talk in Freedom Square on March 19th, 2015...this was the 71st anniversary of Nazi Germany's occupation of Hungary, on March 19th, 1944.

On March 19th, I gave a talk along with historian Iván Szegő (from the 1956 Institute). The discussion was moderated by prominent civil rights activist Eszter Garai-Édler, who set the tone and focus of the discussion, as the tent filled with about 35 participants. “An entire generation came of age in an environment filled with anti-Semitic hate during the interwar period. This isn’t any different today. Isn’t it frightening that a generation of university-educated Hungarians, who have every chance of obtaining positions of political leadership, has been socialized and taught within this antisemitic environment…in an environment where Miklós Horthy is considered a role model?”–noted Ms. Garai-Édler.

Eszter Garai-Édler in Freedom Square on March 19th, 2015. Photo: Christopher Adam.

We spoke about the fact that Hungary was a trailblazer when it came to antisemitic legislation, and that Hungarian authorities were “overachievers” when it came to orchestrating and administering the most rapid deportation of Jews in all of war-torn Europe. Adolf Eichmann had, in fact, commented on the enthusiasm of Hungarian authorities, in terms of collaboration and the deportation of the country’s Jews. Ms. Garai-Édler told me that young right-wing Hungarians do, occasionally, show up to these talks and they often come to present the stereotypes about Jews and to question the narrative of Hungarian responsibility for the Holocaust that these talks and that the alternative monument aim to explore. The activists allow these voices of right-wing dissent to speak, they are listened to, but the hope is that those who come with prejudice will leave Freedom Square with at least a little more openness to dialogue and to tolerance.

Eszter Garai-Édler, who was the recipient of the Radnóti Anti-Racism award, leaves white orchids one evening at the Szabadság tér memorial. Photo: Anna Vörös.

***

While in Budapest, I witnessed another powerful example of how younger generations of engaged Hungarians take it upon themselves to remember the dead and to reflect on some of the most difficult episodes in twentieth century Hungarian history. Szilárd Kalmár is the chair of Hungary’s Left Party (Balpárt), a left-wing movement formed just over a year ago, which sees the mainstream Hungarian centre-left as having little or nothing to say on issues of social justice. This in turn has allowed for the far-right Jobbik to build its support even among opposition voters who traditionally would have voted for the Socialists. Mr. Kalmár is a thirty-something Hungarian who during the week is employed as a social worker in Budapest’s somewhat infamous 8th District. The borough,  home to over 75,000 residents, is known for its glaring poverty, high unemployment, relatively large Roma population and, most recently, is where new migrants to the European Union congregate, before trying to head west.

Mr. Kalmár finished up serving behind a counter in a soup kitchen, which also doubles as the headquarters of the Left Party, as well as a community space with internet access for the local population. The tight space is filled with multilingual posters on anti-racism initiatives and was teaming with local residents, who were either having a meal, were using one of the computer terminals or were chatting with the volunteers. Mr. Kalmár offered me a plate of chicken paprikás, but was then keen to take me on a historical tour showcasing the 8th District’s social democratic and workers’ movement heritage. We walked past buildings that once housed the offices of key left-wing papers, social democratic political movements, a graveside monument for late Hungarian Prime Minister Mihály Károlyi, and he showed me the locations of World War II massacres of 8th District Jews. It was quite an eye-opener, even though I had been familiar with much of the 8th district and some of its local history.

We then walked over to the Kerepesi Street cemetery, which–for left-wingers–is perhaps best known for its massive Workers’ Pantheon and for the grave of Hungarian communist leader János Kádár, the father of “Goulash Communism.” But that isn’t what Mr. Kalmár showed me. He took me to an abandoned corner of the cemetery. Overgrown with trees, an endless tangle of branches and weeds, we came to the untended grave of former Social Democratic government minister Ernő Garami, who served in the revolutionary cabinets of 1918 and 1919, and had previously been the editor-in-chief of the Népszava daily paper. Mr. Garami started off his career as a mechanic, but ended up being one of the iconic (yet by today, largely forgotten) figures of the early twentieth century Hungarian left.

Mr. Kalmár tried to contact Mr. Garami’s descendants, who showed no interest in tending to his grave. After getting in touch with the Kerepesi Street cemetery, Mr. Kalmár was told that as long as the grave did not appear to be completely abandoned, the administration would not remove the tombstone, nor would they excavate and dispose of the remains. So Mr. Kalmár has taken it upon himself to clear the area of weeds and to visit the grave, at regular intervals, with a red carnation.

Szilárd Kalmár, a social worker in Budapest's 8th District, is the only person to tend to the abandoned grave of a prominent Hungarian left-wing political leader. Photo: Christopher Adam.

In my mind, these are striking examples of civic engagements in Hungary. Unfortunately, it is a small-handful of Hungarians–community activists, social workers, artists, public thinkers–who are leading the way, while much of the population is completely disattached from the public discourse. Fear undoubtedly plays an important role. People like Mr. Kalmár or Ms. Garai-Édler, and the handful of outspoken activists, risk losing their jobs and livelihood, and certainly of being labelled with any number of pejoratives by government circles. Unpatriotic, treasonous, Bolshevik, communist–these are just some of the labels that come their way. Yet none of this seems to deter them at all.

If you open your eyes and look close enough, you can see the flickering flame of civic courage in Budapest.

Debunking the Joy of Satan (from Occultforum.org)

Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:32 am

I decided to pick at random some of the many statements on the Joy of Satan website. I analyzed these statements and presented evidence contrary to what they teach. Keep in mind I did not try to debate their philosophical points, because we are all entitled to believe in whatever philosophy we choose. Here are some things to ponder before you become a Neo-Nazi Satanist (btw…thats so fucking edgy).

“Spiritual Satanism does not in any way conflict with science. We strongly encourage and support all scientific knowledge and enquiry.”

Yes it does. Several of the claims on the JoS website about the origin’s of life on earth and Etc. directly conflict with scientific knowledge as will be shown. Furthermore, science has nothing to say about the existence of “Satan.” Science does not say Satan is real or not real, therefore in regards to Satan, science does not conflict with nor support the belief therein. Thus, there is literally no reason to mention science in regards to a personal belief in Satan.

Satan is the Sumerian God known as “EA” or “ENKI.” He is a GOD, not an angel!
The Gods are an extra-terrestrial humanoid race of beings. In the Christian bible, they are referred to as the “Nephilim.” These beings are very evolved, highly advanced, and immensely knowledgable and powerful. They genetically modified their DNA, so they do not age.

If you want to believe that Ea is Enki is Satan, thats fine. We could debate the finer points, but I’ll let you have this one and just say “sure. why not.” I want you to consider instead the statement about the Nephilim being “Gods” who “genetically modified their DNA, so they do not age.” You’re free to believe in the ancient alien theory, but lets remember that they said “nothing about spiritual satanism conflicts with science.” So, does science say that the nephilim were gods (aliens) that came to the earth? Of course not. There is literally 0 evidence for anything like this except for ancient stories told by primitive man, and that is not evidence. So what does science say about the Nephilim? The Nephilim of Genesis were Neanderthals. Yup. Not as exciting as DNA mutating alien gods…but thats the reality of it. Check out this episode with archeologist Simcha Jacobovici. He explains and shows that the Nephilim in Genesis were ancient Neanderthals who, of course, did not mutate their DNA nor do they live forever. He shows all this using science rather than personal beliefs, unlike the JoS.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1237712 (im sure you can find the episode on YouTube or the Piratebay…doubt you’ll look though ;) ) Again, you’re free to think that there were ancient alien gods who mutated their own DNA so that they could live forever, and that the Bible called them the “Nephilim,” but if you do that you are lying when claiming “Spiritual Satanism does not in any way conflict with science.”

Many of us have seen him, we have witnessed the so-called supernatural, and we have been given abilities way beyond that of the average person.

The first error in this statement is claiming that they have witnessed the “supernatural.” Our world is a natural world. We are natural beings living within a very natural world. Supernatural means “beyond the natural.” If something supernatural occured in our natural world, we as natural beings would not even be aware of it…because the event would literally be beyond our natural senses – hence “beyond the natural.” So no. Neither they, nor anyone else, could experience something “supernatural.” The second mistake, of course, is claiming that they have been given abilities “way beyond that of the average person.” I assume these are “supernatural” abilities, right? No wait, I already showed that they couldn’t possibly have supernatural abilities…so maybe just psychic or “paranormal” abilities then? If this is the case, I challenge the JoS leading ministers to demonstrate their “above average” abilities. After all, science is about proving or disproving something, right? And you all love science so much. James Randi is offering 1 million $$$ to anyone who can demonstrate any type of paranormal or psychic ability. So why not take him up on his challenge? He will pay for your flight and hotel arrangements, costing you nothing out of pocket. Besides, with your crazy paranormal powers it will be the easiest million $$$ you will ever make, right? So why not? And please dont say “No. Thats not how it works. Its not about money.” Because then I’ll have to ask, “Then why do you have a store on your website?” Heres the link. Let us all know when you have set up a meeting with Mr. Randi. – http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

As opposed to hysterical Christian claims, Satanism is not in any way about blood sacrifice.

Except when you are dedicating yourself to Satan and sacrificing your life and soul to him, right? In English we call this a “contradiction.” In science I’m pretty sure this is called “bullshit.” See below.

When you are ready, you can light the candle. Take the needle,prick the index finger of your left hand, squeeze some blood out.
Satan dictated the Al Jilwah directly to Yezidi prophet Sheik Adi in the 12th century.

The Al Jilwah has a lot of good things to say in regards to Sinister Philosophy. But it was literally dictated by Satan himself? Are you sure? Check this out: “Then Adam ate of the grain and immediately his belly was inflated. But Melek Ts drove him out of the garden, and leaving him, ascended into heaven. Now Adam was troubled because his belly was inflated, for he had no outlet. God therefore sent a bird to him which pecked at his anus and made an outlet, and Adam was relieved.” So Satan is claiming that humans have an asshole because a bird pecked at his rear-end? And here I thought Satan was all-knowing? You’d think Satan would know about evolution. Oh but this is a metaphoric story, right? Then how do you know the rest of the book isn’t metaphoric, or even that “dictated by Satan” isn’t metaphoric? By the way…the bird pecking and creating the anus directly conflicts with science…so I caught you at that lie again:P

I was going to write this whole big lecture of why Nazism has nothing to do with Satanism, but I decided it wasn’t needed. So heres the claim I’ll make: Hitler was a Christian, and if you want to follow in his footsteps, then you should become a Christian. If you pranced around Nazi Germany claiming to be a Satanist you would have been gassed right along with the Jews. And now some quotes!

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

“….the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil
assumes the living shape of the Jew.”

[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing
Martin Luther’s teachings]

“Today Christians … stand at the head of [this country]… I pledge
that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy
Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian
spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in
literature, in the theater, and in the press – in short, we want to
burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole
life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past …
(few) years.”

[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford
University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:41 am

I haven’t read this piece yet,but will after replying.

Why reply before reading you may ask?

The title,that’s why.

JOS is a Neo Nazi cult masquerading as a legitimate organisation.We do not support nor give the oxygen of publicity to them here on OF.org,if at all possible.
Our site policy has strict rules in regard to hate groups and their ideologies and we act on these,unequivocably and without exception.

I’m putting this here so all and any readers are made aware that this is so,even though having read our rules and that by agreeing to them on sign up,they should already be informed that we do not tolerate any kind of bigotry or hate speech/groups.

Post that shit,get kicked.Permanent.No exceptions.

I’ve written a lot of posts about this group here,as have other members.This tends to come up from time to time as folk who are starting out find information about them and come here to enquire further.

I’m quite glad they do this,actually, as we can help educate on why JOS is dangerous to those who are drawn to it in ignorance of it’s reality.

Having said all this,now I’m going to read before commenting any further.

He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel.

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

“I’m either a fucking genius or a purple Volkswagen Jetta.”
-GeriBot

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Ah.

Keep in mind I did not try to debate their philosophical points, because we are all entitled to believe in whatever philosophy we choose.

You’ve said this at the start,then proceeded to do just what you claimed you would not.

Is this a debunk of JOS or a debunk of Spiritual Satansism as a whole,because most of it reads as the latter and not the former?

The fact that JOS is Neo Nazi is quite far down the page and it’s only given a small nod,yet in my mind and the mind of so many others who know of these arse holes or who have experience of them previously,it’s by far and away the most immediate point to consider in regard to debunking them as a Religious group.
This is an important consideration and distinction to make,particularly as a belief in Spiritual Satanism of and in itself is not in any way inherently or otherwise dangerous to any person and JOS is by far not the only group or site or individual which espouses [ in JOS’s case claims/pretends to espouse…] Spiritual ,Religious and/or Philosophical beliefs about or in regard to Satan.

You may or may not get responses to this post,but if you do and they are antagonistic towards what you’ve written it will most likely be because of your stance on the philosophical/religious views of Spiritual Satanism in general and not because of Neo Nazism within a Spiritual group. You have also broadly painted all Spirituality regarding Satanism into one small corner and labelled it according to JOS viewpoints on it,which is grossly innacurate and incredibly unfair.

Also,this part of your statement,quoted below, could apply equally to anybody holding any kind of what you’ve termed ‘supernatural’ beliefs and not just to Satanism/JOS.

I feel this bears pointing out,as while we value individuality and acknowledge a wide variety of beliefs and disbeliefs on the forum we do not recognise. endorse,validate or otherwise uphold any one belief set above the others as being more true or correct and that includes Atheistic mindsets too.

The first error in this statement is claiming that they have witnessed the “supernatural.” Our world is a natural world. We are natural beings living within a very natural world. Supernatural means “beyond the natural.” If something supernatural occured in our natural world, we as natural beings would not even be aware of it…because the event would literally be beyond our natural senses – hence “beyond the natural.” So no. Neither they, nor anyone else, could experience something “supernatural.” The second mistake, of course, is claiming that they have been given abilities “way beyond that of the average person.” I assume these are “supernatural” abilities, right? No wait, I already showed that they couldn’t possibly have supernatural abilities…so maybe just psychic or “paranormal” abilities then? If this is the case, I challenge the JoS leading ministers to demonstrate their “above average” abilities. After all, science is about proving or disproving something, right? And you all love science so much. James Randi is offering 1 million $$$ to anyone who can demonstrate any type of paranormal or psychic ability. So why not take him up on his challenge? He will pay for your flight and hotel arrangements, costing you nothing out of pocket. Besides, with your crazy paranormal powers it will be the easiest million $$$ you will ever make, right? So why not? And please dont say “No. Thats not how it works. Its not about money.” Because then I’ll have to ask, “Then why do you have a store on your website?” Heres the link. Let us all know when you have set up a meeting with Mr. Randi. – http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Enki as Satan is also not the only form of deification of Satan,or expression of Satan as an individual entity,so this is also a broad stroke of inclusion,which does not apply to all Spiritual or indeed Theistic Satanism any more than JOS speaks for all Spiritual and/or Theistic Satanists.

Just saying.

And here’s a handy exposition on JOS Spiritual/Ritual practices,written from a dissenting, yet still Theistic Satanist’s viewpoint,for some balance. [Diane Vera is ex JOS clergy so the view is one which is perhaps particularly relevant here] :

http://theisticsatanism.com/Demons/JoS.html

He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel.

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

“I’m either a fucking genius or a purple Volkswagen Jetta.”
-GeriBot

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Rin » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:53 pm

The first error in this statement is claiming that they have witnessed the “supernatural.” Our world is a natural world. We are natural beings living within a very natural world. Supernatural means “beyond the natural.” If something supernatural occured in our natural world, we as natural beings would not even be aware of it…because the event would literally be beyond our natural senses – hence “beyond the natural.” So no. Neither they, nor anyone else, could experience something “supernatural.” The second mistake, of course, is claiming that they have been given abilities “way beyond that of the average person.” I assume these are “supernatural” abilities, right? No wait, I already showed that they couldn’t possibly have supernatural abilities…so maybe just psychic or “paranormal” abilities then? If this is the case, I challenge the JoS leading ministers to demonstrate their “above average” abilities. After all, science is about proving or disproving something, right? And you all love science so much. James Randi is offering 1 million $$$ to anyone who can demonstrate any type of paranormal or psychic ability. So why not take him up on his challenge? He will pay for your flight and hotel arrangements, costing you nothing out of pocket. Besides, with your crazy paranormal powers it will be the easiest million $$$ you will ever make, right? So why not? And please dont say “No. Thats not how it works. Its not about money.” Because then I’ll have to ask, “Then why do you have a store on your website?” Heres the link. Let us all know when you have set up a meeting with Mr. Randi. – http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

I’m certainly not a fan of JOS, but this whole ‘well if they have supernormal abilities, why haven’t they cashed in the randi challenge yet?’ argument is a silly one. Randi is a hack, and his challenge isn’t about scientific inquiry into what is and isn’t possible (especially given that he’s an entertainer, not a scientist) but about boosting his own reputation and income by latching onto the fame of well known “TV psychics” and similarly fraudulent entertainers. There are a lot of facts that stand as proof of this, not the least among them the fact that Randi will only accept participants who already have some measure of fame and has refused many unknowns, or that he requires them to sign a contract which not only allows him to set and change the requirements for ‘success,’ but allows him to explain or frame the events in any way he chooses with no legal recourse for the participant. I can’t be bothered with a more detailed write up of how meaningless Randi’s challenge is, but here’s one written by a blogger:

Related Post: Can You Win Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge?

To get on a blog and tell people you are psychic is to have skeptics immediately invite you to take magician James Randi’s million dollar challenge. Rather than reply to every comment of that sort that comes through, I’ve set up this page to deal with this subject. I will demonstrate here that there is no reason to take this challenge seriously. Oh, and by the way, James Randi is a climate change denier. (I think this says a lot about his frame of mind.)

First of all, the challenge is meaningless by scientific standards. It’s not a study and it can’t be replicated. It’s a one off. As it is entirely controlled by one person who has no scientific experience, is known to have strong views and has published no scientific peer reviewed papers on the subject, The challenge carries no scientific weight whatsoever.

Compare that to the Parapsychological Association, which is a member of the The American Association for the Advancement of Science and regularly publishes peer reviewed studies. Here is what real evidence looks like.

By far the most damning evidence that this challenge is a mere publicity stunt is that Randi does not take all comers.

He has explicitly refused to test homeopath John Benneth (who has issued a $100,000 challenge to any person who can demonstrate, under conditions similar to James “the Amazing” Randi’s Psychic Challenge, that the Psychic Challenge is a valid offer for proof of psychic powers.), Professor George Vithoulkas’s homeopathy experiments similarly never got tested and backed down from a challenge issued by Dr. Jule Eisenbud, who wagered $100K that Randi could not duplicate the “thought photography” of Ted Serios, even with the aid of a prop in which a gimmick could be housed. Randi has ignored challenges to the test such as English psychic Chris Robinson. Dick Bierman, PhD proposed a presentiment test to Randi which Randi simply never followed up on. This brings up a legitimate question: who else is he ignoring?

By doing this, the main claim of the challenge, -that no one can pass it and therefore psychic ability does not exist- is voided and any tenuous claims to being scientific are invalidated.

Skeptics seem to think that this challenge means something; that if psychic ability were real, someone would pass the test. This assumption rests on the belief that this challenge is reasonable and fairly administered. But where is the proof of this? Science demands openness. A parapsychological study run like Randi’s challenge would never get out of the gate.

John Benneth, (homeopath) points out that the challenge is not an actual contract, lacks third party mediation and in his words:

Randi has expressly told me that he will not deal with attorneys. As an instrument, its unilateral. Like a fiat from the King, or a papal bull. It gives the applicant no recourse in case Randi harms him; in fact, the applicant has to forego any rights of recompense if Randi harms him.
But the biggest thing is that Randi’s signature has never appeared underneath it. It’s a hoax. It was conceived of by an entertainer, a man who has made a career deceiving and tricking people, a particularly nasty little man who has a grudge to bear against the world, revealed in the animosity routinely shown towards applicants.
How is it that one can expect to have an AGREEMENT with someone who is calling you derogatory names, ridiculing and CHALLENGING you?

He has a point actually. The Daily Grail points out that Rules #4 (allowing Randi to use the data from the experiment in any way he chooses and #8 (denying the applicant legal recourse), when combined allow Randi the option to lie about the results and get away with it.

John Benneth went back and forth in 70 e-mails with Randi. The Vithoulkas experiment process dragged on for two two years, the Zibarov process dragged on for two years, Carina Landin, went through a 3 year process. Only one of these actually came to down to an actual test and that one was botched.

For that matter, how many people have actually gone down to Florida to take the challenge? Randi’s website is decidedly vague on this point. Why is this information missing?

After doing a bit of research on the JREF site, I found out some interesting things. First, many applicants have no clue how to put their abilities up to a scientific test. Once they start in on the process, many drop out. The fact is, performing a psychic ability for a scientific test is much harder than it first appears. They also find out an extra requirement not stated up front: There is a time limit for the preliminary challenge: eight hours.

This time limit is quite a barrier to success. It prevents people from building up statistical significance through sheer repetition, which is how it’s done in every scientific study. Most parapsychological studies do not test for more than a couple of hours at a time, having found that psychic ability wanes quickly as mental exhaustion sets in. There is no reason for the time limit since the applicant is paying all expenses. In fact, in the case that I studied, the number of repetitions was limited. What this means is that psychic ability is not being tested. Extraordinary psychic ability is being tested. This distinction is important. You cannot make claims about psychic ability if you’re testing for something else.

In the case of Pavel Ziborov he had gotten all the way through the process, having agreed to 100 repetitions within the eight hour time limit only to have Randi come back and limit his challenge to 20 repetitions, thereby violating his own protocol and ensuring that nothing less than near total perfection could pass the challenge. No explanation was given for this change which Mr. Ziborov wisely refused. On the JREF site it is simply noted that the challenger had refused to accept the protocol. In other words, Mr. Ziborov’s attempt was cast in the worst possible light. (Mr. Ziborov has posted his response to JREF in the comments below.)

Randi has also claimed that once the parameters are set, neither he nor anyone else can change them, yet it was done here. How is that? Simple. Randi NEVER accepted the application. Mr. Ziborov was going back and forth with JREF for almost two years and in that time he was never formally declared an applicant. It appears that this a loophole in the process that has been exploited to prevent legal challenges to his methods. If nothing is signed, there is no contract and the person applying has no legal means to force a reasonable challenge. It appears that when James Randi talks about the fairness of the challenge, he is referring to accepted applicants, who can only achieve this status by agreeing to absolutely everything Randi demands whether it is reasonable or not.

When I went through the forum postings for the Ziborov challenge, I noted that he was referred to as a “woo.” This is an abbreviation of woo woo. In other words, the challenger was being insulted. Throughout the discussion, other posters on the forum make it clear that they do not believe that he has this talent; effectively saying that he is either a liar, con artist or deluded. These are the people responsible for setting up the challenge and possibly administering it. The bias is clearly strong.

This is extremely important because another undocumented “feature” of the challenge is that the applicant may not bring anyone in either for moral support or to assist or monitor the challenge. There is no way to prevent JREF errors or mischief during the testing. Because the people administering the test are JREF volunteers and are self selected for being strongly skeptical of psi, (they are volunteering their time to a skeptical organization after all,) the chance of errors due to cognitive dissonance and inexperience are actually quite high and there is nothing to prevent them from either covering up any mistakes or simply not catch them at all. JREF is under no obligation to publish a full account of the test nor make good on any JREF errors in the event they occur and are discovered.

There is also the fact that an extremely important bit of information that is lacking. You cannot find it in the FAQ, nor on the application, nor does Mr. Randi talk about it. There is no way that withholding of this information is anything but deliberate. The way this challenge is currently set up, it is in my opinion, a trap designed to disgrace and humiliate the people who take up the challenge.

To easily understand this, let us take the analogy of Mr. Smith’s jumping challenge. Mr. Smith does not believe that the ability to jump actually exists and he has a million dollar challenge to anyone who can prove to him that jumping exists under laboratory conditions. You have to apply for the challenge and bear all travel expenses to Mr. Smith’s facilities. You can help design the experiment and everything will be measured with complete accuracy.

So what’s wrong? If you can jump you should take the challenge right? By now, you should notice what’s missing. There is nothing in the previous statement about how high you have to jump. Wouldn’t you want to know this before you applied for the challenge? Because if the height you have to jump is unreasonable, there is certainly no point in applying. Misdirection has been applied here by confusing the requirements with the testing procedures.

But how can you do this with psi? If someone makes a claim, all they have to do is live up to it right? The answer is that parapsychology is a science that relies on statistics. It is well known that psychic ability is not automatic. People get some answers right and some wrong and statistics must be used to determine if this occurred due to chance or not.

All statistical measurements of psi ability can therefore be expressed as odds against chance. All you have to do is set up a test where the exact odds for chance are known. (i.e. picking the correct picture out of a set of four yields a 25% chance outcome with odds against chance for one trial at 1 in 4.) Certainly JREF would never allow a test where this sort of computation couldn’t be done, nor should they. Statistical certainty is essential for determining success.

So if James Randi wanted to tell people what his requirements were, all he would have to do is tell them what odds against chance he would accept for someone to claim the million dollar prize. He could use words like “approximately” to indicate that there was some flexibility. There is nothing vague or complicated about this, yet this is not mentioned at all even though the challenge application and FAQ were recently re-written to address a number of valid complaints.

Why does he leave out this crucial bit of information? Because it allows Randi to work behind the scenes to make the challenge as difficult as possible. It is well known within scientific circles that the odds against chance that James Randi will accept are 1,000 to 1 for the preliminary challenge and 1,000,000 to 1 for the main challenge. The odds for the main challenge are the equivalent of asking a person to stand under a 20′ high wall and jump over it. And if their foot brushes the top? That’s a failure; too bad, so sad, get lost.

You can’t find this out of course until after you’ve applied. While psychics can, conceivably overcome odds of a thousand to one, it’s extremely doubtful that they can do this under both the pressure of performing, in the presence of extreme skeptics, within eight hours and having their number of trials arbitrarily limited. It is a worse case scenario for demonstrating psychic ability. Beating 1,000,000 to one odds is completely out of the question. Bear in mind that should a psychic show a sudden flash of great ability, they may be asked to repeat it, further worsening the odds. Randi makes no attempt to explain these details, he only paints the applicants in the worst possible light.

Until as recently as the end of 2007, applicants were required to give up all publicity and media rights as a requirement for applying. So not only were they screwed, they were not allowed to talk about it. This is kind of like the sideshow at the carnival where people are promised that they will see something wonderful, but when shown the empty box are advised not to tell anyone else lest they be the only fool. Until very recently, he did not even show the list of applicants. At every step of the way he appears to be seeking to withhold information about the difficulty of the challenge.

This is one more way in which the scientific validity of the challenge is nil. Proving that people cannot jump over a 20ft wall does not prove anything about jumping except that people cannot jump that high. It makes no statement about any ability under that threshold. If a person can only jump six inches, that is still jumping. The same applies to psychic ability.

It is possible for scientists to achieve 1,000,000 to 1 odds, this has been done many times, but only through a great number of repetitions, which is how this sort of science is normally done. Taking time away from the real science to travel to Florida in order to perform in front of die hard skeptics isn’t really high on their priority list. The expense of such an endeavor would likely use up a large chunk of the prize money so as to make the challenge unappealing. Psychic ability has already been proven, so it’s only about shutting Randi up.

But the expense and obstacles of the challenge do not make it an attractive proposition. A scientist would have to front all of the money for the challenge and stands a chance of running out before they get to their goal. They would likely have to do this in the face of Mr. Randi doing everything in his power to prevent their success, since that would mean the end of whatever fame he possesses from the challenge and his skepticism. This would undoubtedly add to their expense. Of course it’s all moot since he ignores them anyway.

In conclusion, there is no reason to take this challenge seriously. It’s not science. The illusion of the Great Test is only maintained through selectively culling applicants, making the process opaque and rigging the odds. Its only possible purpose can be to harass and humiliate people who do not share Mr. Randi’s beliefs.

I’ll leave you with a comment one of Randi’s own volunteers made on a thread discussing an applicant who had been denied (here #468):

I realize that there is almost no interest in holding Randi and the MDC to the standards that they claim for themselves. I’ve always been in a ridiculed minority when I make these suggestions. It is clear that the Challenge is not about allowing people to demonstrate their claims, but rather about providing examples for our ridicule – partly for education, partly for group-bonding (my guesses). I am in the process of moving on from the idea of trying to persuade anyone to care to that of trying to get the JREF and Randi to be more upfront about this instead, in order to thwart criticism. I fully realize that this will be a futile effort as well. I also continue to tell people to quit smoking. (…)

http://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/rand … challenge/

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:30 pm

Randi is a hack, and his challenge isn’t about scientific inquiry into what is and isn’t possible (especially given that he’s an entertainer, not a scientist)

You know there are other challenges like Randi’s all over the world right? They can’t all be biased and “UN-winnable” –http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 pm

Nahemah wrote:Ah.

You’ve said this at the start,then proceeded to do just what you claimed you would not.

I questioned the teachings of the JoS that related to science and rationality. I didn’t say that, for instance, “oh satan isnt real! i dont agree with your spiritual views so hahaha youre wrong!”

Is this a debunk of JOS or a debunk of Spiritual Satansism as a whole,because most of it reads as the latter and not the former?

I addressed spiritual satanism as it is taught by the JoS. Everything quoted about spiritual satanism was quoted from the JoS, not diane vera or anyone else.

The fact that JOS is Neo Nazi is quite far down the page and it’s only given a small nod,yet in my mind and the mind of so many others who know of these arse holes or who have experience of them previously,it’s by far and away the most immediate point to consider in regard to debunking them as a Religious group.
This is an important consideration and distinction to make,particularly as a belief in Spiritual Satanism of and in itself is not in any way inherently or otherwise dangerous to any person and JOS is by far not the only group or site or individual which espouses [ in JOS’s case claims/pretends to espouse…] Spiritual ,Religious and/or Philosophical beliefs about or in regard to Satan.

I know. I figured everyone knew they were neo-nazis so kicking a dead horse would be kicking a dead horse. If people agree with the JoS after knowing they are neo-nazis, then the best thing to do is make them re-consider their teachings that are not directly related to neo-nazism.

You may or may not get responses to this post,but if you do and they are antagonistic towards what you’ve written it will most likely be because of your stance on the philosophical/religious views of Spiritual Satanism in general and not because of Neo Nazism within a Spiritual group. You have also broadly painted all Spirituality regarding Satanism into one small corner and labelled it according to JOS viewpoints on it,which is grossly innacurate and incredibly unfair.

My post was about the JoS, therefore I addressed the JoS. I didnt make any mention of any other teachers or styles of spiritual satanism. I dont think that I even used the phrase “spiritual satanism” once in my entire post.

Also,this part of your statement,quoted below, could apply equally to anybody holding any kind of what you’ve termed ‘supernatural’ beliefs and not just to Satanism/JOS.

You’re right. If you were claiming to have been given “supernatural powers that the average person does not have” by aliens…then I’d ask you to prove it too :P

I feel this bears pointing out,as while we value individuality and acknowledge a wide variety of beliefs and disbeliefs on the forum we do not recognise. endorse,validate or otherwise uphold any one belief set above the others as being more true or correct and that includes Atheistic mindsets too.[/quote
Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god. Atheism does not have a stance regarding the supernatural. I dont think asking for proof of a claim someone makes is an “Atheistic mindset.” If i went around saying, “Im jesus christ and aliens give me super-powers so come follow me and join my cult!” I would hope you’d ask for proof of my supernatural claims before getting baptized by me.

Enki as Satan is also not the only form of deification of Satan,or expression of Satan as an individual entity,so this is also a broad stroke of inclusion,which does not apply to all Spiritual or indeed Theistic Satanism any more than JOS speaks for all Spiritual and/or Theistic Satanists.

The JoS believe that Enki is Ea who is Satan. I didn’t debate that or say it was wrong. The statement did not relate to science or rationality – it is a matter of philosophical belief, and I left it alone like I said I would.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Rin » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:49 am

AIN666 wrote:

Randi is a hack, and his challenge isn’t about scientific inquiry into what is and isn’t possible (especially given that he’s an entertainer, not a scientist)

You know there are other challenges like Randi’s all over the world right? They can’t all be biased and “UN-winnable” –http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal

And on the flip side there’s extensive, albeit frequently ignored, scientific evidence for paranormal abilities.

http://noetic.org/research/psi-research/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
http://www.amazon.com/The-Conscious-Uni … 0061778990

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:36 am

And on the flip side there’s extensive, albeit frequently ignored, scientific evidence for paranormal abilities.

http://noetic.org/research/psi-research/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
http://www.amazon.com/The-Conscious-Uni … 0061778990

[/quote]

Well said. I agree fully and subscribe to the idea of the paranormal. The difference between you, I, and the JoS is that we aren’t claiming to have supernatural powers given to us by aliens as proof of the correctness of our teachings. If someone were to say, “I can move objects with my mind, therefore, you should believe everything I say” I would hope you’d want proof before you blindly believe everything they say and just take their word on it xD

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Rin » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:28 am

AIN666 wrote:

And on the flip side there’s extensive, albeit frequently ignored, scientific evidence for paranormal abilities.

http://noetic.org/research/psi-research/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
http://www.amazon.com/The-Conscious-Uni … 0061778990

Well said. I agree fully and subscribe to the idea of the paranormal. The difference between you, I, and the JoS is that we aren’t claiming to have supernatural powers given to us by aliens as proof of the correctness of our teachings. If someone were to say, “I can move objects with my mind, therefore, you should believe everything I say” I would hope you’d want proof before you blindly believe everything they say and just take their word on it xD

Yeah I agree with you there, even if they do have these abilities (and I’m rather skeptical on that count), to paraphrase a Yogi who’s name I can’t remember, someone using paranormal abilities isn’t proof of anything except that they possess paranormal abilities. It doesn’t inherently make their philosophy or worldview any more valid.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:33 pm

Before I say anything else,I ‘m sorry for the forthcoming dickishness,but here it is anyway:

AIN,you missed the point I was making about JOS masquerading as a Spiritual organisation,the masquerading part is very important and it relates to why I posted Ms,Vera’s account of JOS bad practice regarding evocation,summoning and pacting.

The spiritual stuff is a ruse to suck folk in,just like the other religiosities employed by various Neo Nazi groups in engaging with and encouraging dissafected folk into their groups and into their mindsets.

If you’d addressed that more instead of attempting to debunk them using bad science and poor etymology for that matter also, to disenfranchise their bad attempt at spirituality, you’d be on much surer ground.

The only other species of humans hinted at in the Bible are the infamous Nephilim (Gen. 6:4, Num 13:32-33), a race of giants “as tall as cedar trees” (Amos 2:9) who were the offspring of the ever-mysterious “sons of God.” The Bible says that, to the Nephilim, the early Jews looked as small as grasshoppers (and were just as tasty).

Some people try to link the Nephilim to the Neanderthals, but the Neanderthals were no giants, averaging just over 5′ tall. So unless the early Jews were elves, this doesn’t compute.

http://500questions.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/23-why-doesnt-the-bible-mention-neanderthals/

The above page is tongue in cheek,but it does cover several of the flaws in the Nephilim/Neanderthal hypothesis you posted about.I can bring the hard genetic science,but I’ll do it later,if I must as I now have to watch the episode you posted about,even though I will not recover the time I feel I’m about to waste doing so.

On the etymology: Super does not mean beyond,from it’s original Latin it means over or above and the term was originally posited as a means of describing Godly or Divine interaction with the mortal world.

supernatural (adj.) Look up supernatural at Dictionary.com
early 15c. “above nature, transcending nature, belonging to a higher realm,” from Medieval Latin supernaturalis “above or beyond nature,” from Latin super “above” (see super-) + natura “nature” (see nature). Originally with more of a religious sense, “of or given by God, divine; heavenly;” association with ghosts, etc., has predominated since c.1799.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=supernatural&searchmode=none

And natural was originally coined to describe inborn or inherent human traits:

natural (adj.) Look up natural at Dictionary.com
c.1300, naturel, “of one’s inborn character; hereditary, by birth;” early 14c. as “of the world of nature (especially as opposed to man),” from Old French naturel “of nature, conforming to nature; by birth,” and directly from Latin naturalis “by birth, according to nature,” from natura “nature” (see nature).From late 15c. as “not miraculous, in conformity with nature.” Meaning “easy, free from affectation” is attested from c.1600. Of things, “not artificially created,” c.1600. As a euphemism for “illegitimate, bastard” (of children), it is first recorded c.1400, on notion of blood kinship (but not legal status).Natural science is from late 14c.; natural law is from early 15c. Natural order “apparent order in nature” is from 1690s. Natural childbirth first attested 1933. Natural life, usually in reference to the duration of life, is from late 15c. Natural history is from 1560s (see history). To die of natural causes is from 1570s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=natural

Another flaw in the natural argument is that we live surrounded by technology and inventions which can easily be defined as unnatural or ‘super’ natural,if using your own narrow definiton.

I didn’t really want to post more here,but using flawed rationality to disprove flawed rationality dosen’t work and if anything it makes it easier for those who support such heinous views as those held by JOS to counter argue in their own favour and I’d rather not give them that edge.

End of dickishness,for now.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:58 pm

I enjoy your insights :) ❤ And respect your opinions.

Some people try to link the Nephilim to the Neanderthals, but the Neanderthals were no giants, averaging just over 5′ tall. So unless the early Jews were elves, this doesn’t compute.

My reference includes a world-famous archeologist. Your’s…a guy on the internet with a free wordpress site. ❤

1000s of years ago, people were not as tall as they are now. Goliath is called a “giant”…his name is synonymous with very tall people. And in his time, he likely was a “giant.” But he was only about 6’2”. In our time, that isnt exactly gigantic, right? http://www.examiner.com/article/david-a … as-goliath The video I gave shows that the Neanderthals were the “nephilim” of genesis.

On the etymology: Super does not mean beyond,from it’s original Latin it means over or above and the term was originally posited as a means of describing Godly or Divine interaction with the mortal world.

O.o Super – above/beyond. Yes. However, “natural” in the context of “supernatural” is not “natural” in the context of a human beings “born with abilities.” Natural means the processes and laws of nature, in the term “supernatural.” So yeah…not sure what your argument is for my questioning of their claim to “supernatural” abilities. Here is the word actually defined. Especially note #3…which backs up my claim of “if something supernatural occurred, we are natural beings wouldnt even be aware of it.”
Adjective

supernatural (comparative more supernatural, superlative most supernatural)

1. Above nature; that which is beyond or added to nature, often so considered because it is given by a deity or some force beyond that which humans are born with. In Roman Catholic theology, sanctifying grace is considered to be a supernatural addition to human nature.
2. Not of the usual; not natural; altered by forces that are not understood fully if at all.
3. Neither visible nor measurable.

End of dickishness,for now.

Im not here to argue with spiritual satanists who took my post about the JoS personally. I didnt post this to make you feel as though you had to defend your beliefs. I didnt mention any type of Satanism outside of the JoS. If you arent a JoS member im not sure why you would take it to heart. I can clearly argue my points over and over if we must, but it seems as annoying a spam. Care to agree to disagree? [rolleyes]

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Asurendra » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:46 am

I am not entering into this doctrinal disputation, I only want to make a point about the identification of the Biblical Nephilim with Neanderthals. If you accept the Biblical narrative the problem with this claim is that it makes man older than the Neanderthal. Modern humans began roughly 200,000 years ago while the first Neanderthals were 600,000. These dates are the current consensus.

About the size of these Nephilim: I went and took my Greek Septuagint and my Latin Vulgate from the shelf and blew the dust off then looked at Genesis 6:4. The same work ‘gigantes’ is used and this means the same as our word in English. The Bible itself makes it clear that these giants were not suppose to be just a foot taller than man. The proof of that is Og of Bashan (whom the Jewish Midrash says was the last of the Nephilim). The text gives the measurements of his bed in Deut. 3:11 as roughly 13 foot. Further, when the spies first entered Canaan they claimed the giants were still and they felt “like grasshoppers” in comparison (Num. 13:1-14). I would point out that the spies were lying and were punished for it, but, the point is that they were using the accepted belief of the Hebrews regarding what a giant is, being much more than just a foot taller.

Nahemah’s points on this matter are fully supported by the Biblical text. The size of Goliath is not relevant because he was not one of the Nephilim in either the text itself or, so far as I am aware, in Jewish tradition (for what that’s worth).

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:47 pm

In Layman’s terms,a very reader friendly guide [grin] :

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals

In not so Layman friendly terms:

http://www.genetics.org/content/156/2/799.full

http://www.pnas.org/content/96/13/7117.long

Please read these and ask questions later,if you wish to. [thumbup]

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Asurendra » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:35 am

While I don’t believe it, a far better Biblical-based argument for the place of the Neanderthal in the scriptures would be drawn from the exile of Cain in Genesis chapter four.

Since AIN666 likes Latin, I’ll quote the Vulgate:

In 4:14 after he is told to get out, Cain tells Yahweh “omnis igitur qui invenerit me occidet me” (all those who find me will kill me) leading to the famous question: ‘I thought only 4, now 3 people existed! Who are these people?’ There must have been a lot of these mystery people because, 4:16 “habitavit in terra profugus ad orientalem” (he lived in a land to the east -after leaving) and then 4:17 “aedificavit civitatem” (he built a city). In the Hebrew text the word for city is ‘Iyr,’ which is a settlement much larger than a ‘kfar,’ or town and which has walls. So it clearly implies there were many of these non-adamic people.

The Jewish Midrash says Cain & Able had sisters and these people come from them but that is rather unsatisfying in both time and number.

In reality, it is just a contradiction between different narratives and a flaw, but the dogmatically oriented can have fun with it and argue he interbred with the Neanderthals, who were already there and older (conforming to current belief) while the first homo sapiens were a special creation.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby thestudyingalchemist » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:50 pm

Well there’s something I never understood…
How can a satanist be a neo-nazi?!?
I mean nazism is completely fascist, homophobe, sexist, racist and do not respect any indivual choice of anyone and just take control over people….
But satanism is exactly at the opposite of this so please can someone explain how it is possible??? I never believed that it was possible and I know that JoS are using some concepts and symbols using by the nazi (well not a lot anyway) but does it mean that they are neo-nazi because I mean the ideology is incompatible….

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:08 pm

Political and Religous Ideologies cross over all the time and the two are not mutually exclusive of each other by any means.

It is quite possible to be Satanist and Neo-Nazi,just as it is to be Christian and Neo-Nazi or Asatru and Neo-Nazi,for that matter also.

It is also possible to hold other religious beliefs that are compatible with Nazi ideology too.

Racism,bigotry,homophobia,misogyny and social elitism are,unfortunately,present in all walks of life and humanity.

He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby thestudyingalchemist » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:42 pm

Nahemah wrote:Political and Religous Ideologies cross over all the time and the two are not mutually exclusive of each other by any means.

It is quite possible to be Satanist and Neo-Nazi,just as it is to be Christian and Neo-Nazi or Asatru and Neo-Nazi,for that matter also.

It is also possible to hold other religious beliefs that are compatible with Nazi ideology too.

Racism,bigotry,homophobia,misogyny and social elitism are,unfortunately,present in all walks of life and humanity.

Yeah I understand that but it is just so different that if a satanist claim himself being a neo-nazi he’s not a satanist anymore, I mean there can be common points you can had but not to combine nazism with satanism it’s just not satanism anymore…

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Asurendra » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:18 am

Ain666 seems to have left the Forum, otherwise I am sure he would be happy to engage you in long and intricate doctrinal analysis akin to the Pharisaical disputations between the Calvinist and Arminian sects over such matters as Predestination.
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:14 pm

Nahemah, I totally applaud what your stance on the JOKE of Satan website, and I personally will rather go to the proper sources instead of visiting that Neo Nazi site run by someone who is Half Native American!!! [zomg] [zomg] [zomg]
The final straw was there views on Hell and the Afterlife where that idiotwoman claims to of met a VIP spirit who was well protected by Father Satan (LOL), and there is no prizes in guessing who he is! He was none other than Heinreich HImmler who is one of her idols LOL. Full of lies and garbage is what that bitch is about but what really needs to be done is having her face exposed to all and sundry.
I feel the Laveyan approach is needed with this Neo Nazi cult, we need to avoid mentioning them because if we do we just give them astral power. And another thing, THE ANGELS are more powerful than any ‘father’ satan who must be just a demon cos the Real Satan will not waste time with her.
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:59 pm

Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Maxine got attacked by her lovely NeoNazis cos this is the only way she will learn the REAL TRUTH. By the way I do not endorse violence of any kind but she is someone who deserves it and I know some people know exactly who she is and they will expose her ugly face to everyone, so that we can see the most strangest Neo Nazi there is. Another thing, those medidations do more harm than good and please go the the proper sources instead and read up on the Diana Vera webpage. Oh I wish more info was on there, and I support her more than the old Nazi Hag. Maybe she must of been in Germany in her previous life and she is hankering for that life, but just for the record the real Satan will not waste time with her, he would rather spend time with Lady Gaga or President Obama instead [zomg]
A good link to readhttp://web.archive.org/web/201001132018 … edietrich/
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby thestudyingalchemist » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:38 am

Honestly it really freaks me out that a neo-nazi group claim themselves satanist… No but seriously isn’t there enough stereotypes about satanism?! I still don’t understand how can a neonazi group claim themselves satanist it seems just so contradictive I mean. But anyway I’m very surprise that they are caus just by looking at their main pages it doesn’t seem that they are nazis (but surelly antisémitic)… But I guess that thats how they slowly manipulate people. Before this post the only thing that really made me doubt about them was first that they are very neutral when talking about nazism, example in one of their text about “the origin of satanism”, I mean they usualy accused the religions about stolling elements but about nazis they just said in this case “the most known example is the nazi germanic sigil” or something like that. Of course they were other examples like their symbologies explaination with the nazi “skull and bones” and the “black sun” wich is also an element from the nazi occultism. It really disapoint me anyway…

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:58 pm

I am going to confess to something here, I actually go to the JoS website for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES only, and that woman is making me laugh a lot. Another thing I will say is that I feel kind of sorry for her in some ways but honestly she needs to have her photo etc shown to all and sundry on the Internet LOL.
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Here is one link to show all and sundry what the JoS stands for, and there are some people in FB who knows exactly what she looks like etc and will show all and sundry her photograph and detail on the net. A neo nazi who is of mixed race like Maxine make me laugh a lot! but reading more about what the JoS is making me avoid that site for good. I do not give a shit if she is ‘knowledgable’ etc, all she is to me is Nazi scum and what is disturbing is that she is mind controlling teens and youngsters into her way of thinking. [mad]

This is what the JoS endorses

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:41 am

Something else for you all to look into, and this is what the Joke of Satan claims never existed because they are just bastards acting all tough behind a computer monitor. I will go to other websites for my entertainment and in some ways the JoS website is on par with those filthy Conspricarcy sites which tend to attract many Neo Nazis, etc.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … ictoc.html

Look at this website and then ask yourself where the Holocaust happened or not, but I have heard that this ‘woman’ has a lot of youngsters being made into High Priests etc because they are easy to mind control. I would rather go to Diana Vera or Caroline Bright’s website instead, because the energies are better and as for Maxine, her days of acting the big ‘I am’ is finished. BITCH!!! I would pay good money for her to say all these things on a TV show in front of an audience which incld jews, blacks, and other PROPER Occultists but she will not cos she is just a hasbeen with an internet connection. Oh and another thing, Himmler would put her first in the queue for the gas chambers cos she is not totally white. A disgrace to the Native Americans is she. [mad]

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:14 am

Asurendra wrote:Ain666 seems to have left the Forum, otherwise I am sure he would be happy to engage you in long and intricate doctrinal analysis akin to the Pharisaical disputations between the Calvinist and Arminian sects over such matters as Predestination.

*Armenian

Anytime.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Asurendra » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:20 am

Armenian?

Wrong, please note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby AIN666 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:36 am

Asurendra wrote:Armenian?

Wrong, please note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

“Arminianism is based on the theological ideas of the previously Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609) and his historic supporters known as the Remonstrants. His teachings, however, departed from the Sovereign Grace teaching of the Reformers and as such he cannot be regarded as Reformed. Jacobus Arminius (Jacobus Hermanszoon) was a student of Beza (successor of Calvin) at the Theological University of Geneva. It is known as a soteriological sect of Protestant Christianity.[1] Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the States-General of the Netherlands. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the States General to consider the Five Articles of Remonstrance. They asserted that:

election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, is efficacious only for the man of faith;
unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
grace is resistible; and
believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.”

Stop following the thread when jimmies started getting rustled, so I’m not sure what that has to do with the “hurr durr I love Hitler and Satan” of JoS, unless the thread has turned into something else [thumbup]

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Parvati » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:10 pm

Ain, I understand where you are coming from and believe it or not, I too was once an avid reader of the site before I found out that the Old Hag was married to the Ex Leader of the NSM Clifford Herrington. Just a few days ago I found out that visiting that site (some blogs do this!) will put extra coins in the pockets of those bastards and those donations pay for their bills, groceries, and also the NeoNazi cause. I do not fund fascists, and I do not give a damn who knowledgable they claim they are in matters of Medidation, Demon Evocation, and so on.
Maxine Dietrich may have the aura that she is well written but remember all those articles on her website are copy/paste jobs from Llewllyn books, bemyastrologer.com, Franz Bardon, etc and please under no circumstances do those medidations because they are more harmful than good.
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Debunking the Joy of Satan: An Alternative Perspective

Postby mmlozza » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:32 am

I know this thread dried out a while ago but I have some views I’d like to add….

I’ve been trying to find my own path for a while now, and a lot of the stuff regarding Spiritual Satanism on this site makes sense to me. I’ve looked into stuff by Anton La Vey and Don Webb, and most things Left Hand Path-related. Everyone has their own individual take on the type of deities they are worshipping. I dedicated my soul to Satan the other day, but I didn’t use candles and I didn’t sign my name in blood, precisely for the reason given on the site that said blood sacrifices aren’t needed. A lot of the information is contradictory given the evidence that others have presented, but how many of us have the answers to everything? If everyone’s truth is subjective, they can only present it as they have found it: when they reach a certain point of initiation they then, as most organisations seem to advocate, try to pass their teachings onto others to “spread the word” and “enlighten people”. In my opinion, what matters is what you take from the collection of knowledge that’s out there and how it makes you feel. People can postulate about death, reincarnation and rebirth and all that stuff til they’re blue in the face, but it’s an individual experience and we’ll never truly know until we die. I now believe Satan is the creator god because most of what I’ve read marries up and answers questions in my mind about the Christian god, and what the alternative is. I’m happy with this and feel no need to question it further. Truth is what you make of it, and everyone’s is different. If you get to the end of your life and it turns out you were wrong, well, you’ll surely deal with it then.
I have found a path that fits with my view of the world, and I now intend to follow it (Spiritual Satanism, not JoS. I am not a JoS member.) I’m still struggling to put myself into a trance as the only time for true peace and quiet is after midnight, but I’ll get there. I have to! I respect the views of everyone on this site and welcome opposition to what I’ve said. We’re all trying to find our way, people will disagree and agree with what is said, some more strongly than others, but it doesn’t mean we’re any less or more wrong or right.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby oldspirit » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:16 pm

“Hitler was a christian and if you were a satanist you would be gassed like the jews” you had me all the way up to this point.

Have you ever heard of Martin Bormann, The Third Reich Leader in 1933 and the man who took Rudolph Hess spot as the Head of the Party Chancellery.
Or what about the Anti-Church Campaign that Borrman, Himmler, and Rosenberg (all high ranking SS officers) pushed, this would NOT have happend without Hitlers approval.
I dont care what he said in his speeches about being a christian, he was not one and neither was any top authority in the Nazi Party

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby oldspirit » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:18 pm

Parvati wrote:Ain, I understand where you are coming from and believe it or not, I too was once an avid reader of the site before I found out that the Old Hag was married to the Ex Leader of the NSM Clifford Herrington. Just a few days ago I found out that visiting that site (some blogs do this!) will put extra coins in the pockets of those bastards and those donations pay for their bills, groceries, and also the NeoNazi cause. I do not fund fascists, and I do not give a damn who knowledgable they claim they are in matters of Medidation, Demon Evocation, and so on.
Maxine Dietrich may have the aura that she is well written but remember all those articles on her website are copy/paste jobs from Llewllyn books, bemyastrologer.com, Franz Bardon, etc and please under no circumstances do those medidations because they are more harmful than good.

No Way! im with you on that. Any group that wants to restrict freedoms or civil liberties i want no part of. Her website seemed very sincere and informative, then i watched some of her you tube videos and felt nothing but hate, anger, rage, and negative energy. That cant be healthy or good for a spiritual awakening.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby JonChang » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 pm

oldspirit wrote:

Parvati wrote:Ain, I understand where you are coming from and believe it or not, I too was once an avid reader of the site before I found out that the Old Hag was married to the Ex Leader of the NSM Clifford Herrington. Just a few days ago I found out that visiting that site (some blogs do this!) will put extra coins in the pockets of those bastards and those donations pay for their bills, groceries, and also the NeoNazi cause. I do not fund fascists, and I do not give a damn who knowledgable they claim they are in matters of Medidation, Demon Evocation, and so on.
Maxine Dietrich may have the aura that she is well written but remember all those articles on her website are copy/paste jobs from Llewllyn books, bemyastrologer.com, Franz Bardon, etc and please under no circumstances do those medidations because they are more harmful than good.

No Way! im with you on that. Any group that wants to restrict freedoms or civil liberties i want no part of. Her website seemed very sincere and informative, then i watched some of her you tube videos and felt nothing but hate, anger, rage, and negative energy. That cant be healthy or good for a spiritual awakening.

If someone were to curse you, wouldn’t you be angry at them lol? Or you believe in all that new age “love, we’re all one” BS?

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Klavier » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:32 pm

I thought I was banned, but I suppose my suspension was cancelled.

When I was younger I felt like I had to oppose both Christianity and modern Satanism. Modern “Satanists” were non-religious and, most of the times, uneducated leftists using several names (like “Azazel”) without even taking the time to read the books these names were derived from. They keep praising Azazel, whilst the book of Enoch, from whence the name of this demon was drawn, states that Satan will be punishing the sinners who left their celestial place as… common sinners. They are not treated by the LORD, the One called Satan and the Devil, as His angels are. He will be torturing them for ages and ages, amen.

Anyway, because of this blind ignorance of the neo-satanists, I was acting as if I was a Nazist just to provoke them back then. They have taboos, you see, even though they claim Satanism is about not having any taboos whatsoever, they have taboos against the scapegoats of this age (Nazism wouldn’t be so bad to consider if the Soviet Union and America hadn’t won, would it?), and one of them is the taboo against Nazism. If you are an individualist, why would you care if someone hates some kinds of people? (Although Nazism is not really about hatred)

So, I ended up feeling I was agreeing with J.o.S. (although I didn’t really know J.o.S. itself yet). In the end, I had a destructive argument with the “Satanists” of J.o.S. I was communicating with, even though they seemed to agree with me at the beginning. Why? Because of their stupidity and the disturbing fact that they mix up occultism and Satanism with politics. So, I came to the conclusion that I wasn’t a Nazist after all, I just wanted to oppose everyone who was mixing politics with Satanism, including the ones mixing feminism, homosexuality and anti-racism with it. So, in the end, I had trouble (well, the trouble was theirs to handle, since I prevailed) with the nationalist “Satanists” as well.

Ok. Of course the stuff about “aliens” etcetera is purely stupid, but back then they didn’t make so stupid statements, so I never opposed them because of that.

And, just to get this straight, I have no problem with Nazism. In fact, I do believe in the difference of psychology according to one’s race, and I don’t have any problem with someone hating a race or a part of people just because of their ideology, I’m just stating that Satanism has nothing to do with politics, and both the atheistic and the theistic and the so called “traditional Satanists” do mess up with politics. So, for me, they are just opportunists and not Satanists. This whole thing is more intense in my mind now that I have a personal conflict with Azazel (he seems to be waiting for me to be weak enough in order to drain energy from me, no matter how many times I exorcise him in the Name of Satan).

For a Satanist is the one who praises the LORD, the Wicked One of the Bible. Period.

During my last conflict with Azazel he won because of the pills I had consumed which caused me not to be able to speak fluently and use my energy to banish him, but “I shall see him at Philippi”…

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby EternalReturn » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:08 pm

I would like to know if you’re from Europe?

It’s because I am and I’ve heard from older people about horrors of Nazi rule, and it is definitely something to have a problem with. Have you seen the film Schindler’s List? One of the co-creators was a Croatian man Branko Lustig who has felt, seen and was in the midst of the events, and a lot of things that you can see in the movie are real situations which came from Lustig’s experience. If you haven’t I recommend it.

edit: I will not continue this discussion because I know that this is a path to a fuckin’ abbys

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:49 pm

thought I was banned, but I suppose my suspension was cancelled.

Nope,there was no ban or suspension on your account that I’m aware of.

I can’t see any mod notes regarding this either.

Why did you think you were banned?

He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel.

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Klavier » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:09 pm

Nahemah wrote:

thought I was banned, but I suppose my suspension was cancelled.

Nope,there was no ban or suspension on your account that I’m aware of.

I can’t see any mod notes regarding this either.

Why did you think you were banned?

Every time I was trying to log in I read I cannot do it for I am suspended because of spam and giving false information about myself. Something like that.

EternalReturn wrote:I would like to know if you’re from Europe?

It’s because I am and I’ve heard from older people about horrors of Nazi rule, and it is definitely something to have a problem with. Have you seen the film Schindler’s List? One of the co-creators was a Croatian man Branko Lustig who has felt, seen and was in the midst of the events, and a lot of things that you can see in the movie are real situations which came from Lustig’s experience. If you haven’t I recommend it.

edit: I will not continue this discussion because I know that this is a path to a fuckin’ abbys

Yes, I am from Europe and I’ve watched Schindler’s List. It focuses on the Jews. So, why should I care? Jerusalaim Chel Zahav was a good song by the way. And, yes, I’ve heard of those horrors too, but I’m a Diabololator; a Diabolist. What makes you thinking that I care about it? You can torture to death the whole planet as long as you don’t touch me and you don’t blaspheme against the LORD. I would do the same if I could control my psychic powers. Although it seems I’m getting somewhere right now that I stopped searching for books that modern and opportunistic “Satanists” purposely want to silence for their pacific and individualistic goals.

What are you expecting from a Diabolist? To protest against crime and inhumanity? I’m not a humanist. (And, by the way, an ideology isn’t judged through its crimes, but through its original beliefs)

I suggest you watch “Thanatomorphose” and “The Fly”. They are much more inspiring than Schindler’s List when it comes to (fictional) horror.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Ramscha » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:21 pm

Klavier wrote:
And, by the way, an ideology isn’t judged through its crimes, but through its original beliefs

And by what people make out of them by following those ways…

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Nahemah » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:39 pm

Warned users

This is a list of users with unexpired warnings issued to them.

No warnings exist.

I am suspended because of spam and giving false information about myself. Something like that.

Not so,above is the warning log entry,all active warnings/supensions show in the log for one month after issue,so your name would be there with the reason for infraction if you had recently been supended/banned.

You are ether confused or lying or it’s another account you’re talking about, which I probably have banned.

Do carry on.

He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel.

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby EternalReturn » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:55 pm

Klavier wrote:

EternalReturn wrote:I would like to know if you’re from Europe?

It’s because I am and I’ve heard from older people about horrors of Nazi rule, and it is definitely something to have a problem with. Have you seen the film Schindler’s List? One of the co-creators was a Croatian man Branko Lustig who has felt, seen and was in the midst of the events, and a lot of things that you can see in the movie are real situations which came from Lustig’s experience. If you haven’t I recommend it.

edit: I will not continue this discussion because I know that this is a path to a fuckin’ abbys

Yes, I am from Europe and I’ve watched Schindler’s List. It focuses on the Jews. So, why should I care? Jerusalaim Chel Zahav was a good song by the way. And, yes, I’ve heard of those horrors too, but I’m a Diabololator; a Diabolist. What makes you thinking that I care about it? You can torture to death the whole planet as long as you don’t touch me and you don’t blaspheme against the LORD. I would do the same if I could control my psychic powers. Although it seems I’m getting somewhere right now that I stopped searching for books that modern and opportunistic “Satanists” purposely want to silence for their pacific and individualistic goals.

What are you expecting from a Diabolist? To protest against crime and inhumanity? I’m not a humanist. (And, by the way, an ideology isn’t judged through its crimes, but through its original beliefs)

I suggest you watch “Thanatomorphose” and “The Fly”. They are much more inspiring than Schindler’s List when it comes to (fictional) horror.

I will, thank you for suggestion.

But I have to ask, concerning morality and such what are your thoughts?

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Klavier » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:31 am

Nahemah wrote:

Warned users

This is a list of users with unexpired warnings issued to them.

No warnings exist.

I am suspended because of spam and giving false information about myself. Something like that.

Not so,above is the warning log entry,all active warnings/supensions show in the log for one month after issue,so your name would be there with the reason for infraction if you had recently been supended/banned.

You are ether confused or lying or it’s another account you’re talking about, which I probably have banned.

Do carry on.

I said I wasn’t allowed to login. Every time I was trying there was this white message under my username and password.

EternalReturn wrote:

Klavier wrote:

EternalReturn wrote:I would like to know if you’re from Europe?

It’s because I am and I’ve heard from older people about horrors of Nazi rule, and it is definitely something to have a problem with. Have you seen the film Schindler’s List? One of the co-creators was a Croatian man Branko Lustig who has felt, seen and was in the midst of the events, and a lot of things that you can see in the movie are real situations which came from Lustig’s experience. If you haven’t I recommend it.

edit: I will not continue this discussion because I know that this is a path to a fuckin’ abbys

Yes, I am from Europe and I’ve watched Schindler’s List. It focuses on the Jews. So, why should I care? Jerusalaim Chel Zahav was a good song by the way. And, yes, I’ve heard of those horrors too, but I’m a Diabololator; a Diabolist. What makes you thinking that I care about it? You can torture to death the whole planet as long as you don’t touch me and you don’t blaspheme against the LORD. I would do the same if I could control my psychic powers. Although it seems I’m getting somewhere right now that I stopped searching for books that modern and opportunistic “Satanists” purposely want to silence for their pacific and individualistic goals.

What are you expecting from a Diabolist? To protest against crime and inhumanity? I’m not a humanist. (And, by the way, an ideology isn’t judged through its crimes, but through its original beliefs)

I suggest you watch “Thanatomorphose” and “The Fly”. They are much more inspiring than Schindler’s List when it comes to (fictional) horror.

I will, thank you for suggestion.

But I have to ask, concerning morality and such what are your thoughts?

Similar with the ones I have about Christianity: “Diabolus est Deus inversus”

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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Klavier » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:56 pm

This whole alien theory and daring to call the LORD a Nephelim is outrageous. I hope Maxine shall die really painfully for her blasphemy and pay a visit to the “Nephelim” down there for her flesh to be sharpened on fiery wheels whilst she’s still alive. Apropos, the one speaking on their videos cannot be Maxine. From what I understand, Maxine has to be an old ugly whore who claims to be a Nazi whilst she is not even white, so it’s pretty unlikely that she has such a young voice and this kind of accent.
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby manofsands » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:32 am

Klavier wrote:I’m a Diabololator; a Diabolist. What makes you thinking that I care about it? You can torture to death the whole planet as long as you don’t touch me and you don’t blaspheme against the LORD. I would do the same if I could control my psychic powers.

Would it be presumptuous to assume you’ve had a lot of pain and unhappiness in your life?

There should be obviously expected responses to such posts. Which would indicate a desire for such responses.

Hi

YOU ARE
where your
ATTENTION ISthere is no need to push the river… it will flow on its own
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manofsands
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Re: Debunking the Joy of Satan

Postby Klavier » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:19 pm

manofsands wrote:

Klavier wrote:I’m a Diabololator; a Diabolist. What makes you thinking that I care about it? You can torture to death the whole planet as long as you don’t touch me and you don’t blaspheme against the LORD. I would do the same if I could control my psychic powers.

Would it be presumptuous to assume you’ve had a lot of pain and unhappiness in your life?

There should be obviously expected responses to such posts. Which would indicate a desire for such responses.

Hi

I didn’t know this is a psychology forum. But, no, I was never really unhappy and I was claiming to be Satanist since I was seven because of my sympathy for the LORD. I had no idea that today’s Satanism is crawling on pseudo-moralistic and politically correct businesses made for money, sex or political propaganda.

Photographs Documenting the Holocaust in Hungary

Photographs Documenting the Holocaust in Hungary

by László Karsai Ph.D.


Introduction, by Harry W. Mazal OBE:

When the Soviet Army captured Budapest on January 17-18, 1945, it was too late to save the lives of 564,500 Jews who had been sent to the various death-camps run by the Nazis. The Budapest SS headquarters, however, was over-run by the Soviets before the Nazis were able to destroy a huge number of papers which documented their efforts to annihilate the Hungarian Jews. These documents, together with many of the photographs that are part of this essay, were bundled up by the Soviets and stored in the basement of the Hungarian Ministry of the Interior where they remained unseen for over forty years. When Hungary regained its independence from the Soviet block, the new Minister of the Interior discovered these documents and gave them to the Jewish Museum and Archives of Hungary where Dr. Karsai is presently cataloging and scanning them. We are pleased that the Museum has selected The Holocaust History Project as the site in the United States where eventually all of the tens of thousands of documents may be viewed. The small sampling shown below bears witness to those dreadful years.


Many people know – although many of them very much want to forget, and many more want to make others forget – that the Nazis and their European accomplices murdered six million Jews by employing various methods, such as hunger, beating, hanging, shooting, gassing, etc. during the Second World War. Nearly one tenth of the victims were Hungarian Jews, which means approximately 550,000 people. This estimate is based on a sound research of archival documents.

Even the definition is strange: a “Hungarian Jew.” A major element constituting the tragedy of the Jews in Hungary was that those people who after their Emancipation (1867) became unreservedly Hungarians regarding their language, customs, clothing, and most importantly, their feelings, were excluded from the community of Hungarian citizens. Horthy Miklós’s regime (1920-1944) carried out their gradual exclusion by a series of Jewish Laws passed after 1938. Those very same Jews, about whom Theodor Herzl stated with resignation at the turn of the century that they became a “dry bough” of Zionism, suddenly realized that their homeland for which they had fought with such devotion during the First World War (more than 10,000 Jews died and thousands upon thousands were wounded and disabled) regarded them as alien enemies. This was the case in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of the Hungarian Jewry, notwithstanding the orthodoxim, regarded themselves as Hungarians following the “faith of Moses.”

The reasons why the Hungarian Parliament agreed to pass the severely unlawful First Jewish Law is a subject of a historical debate. According to the traditional opinion it was meant to be a token of “good” intentions towards Hitler’s Reich, the neighbor of which Hungary became after the Anschluss (the Nazi Third Reich annexed Austria in March 1938). It is also possible that the right-wing conservative politicians aimed to take the wind out of the sails of the extreme right. It may well be that the example of the fascist Italy also exercised a considerable influence, since Mussolini in the same year passed anti-Semitic laws and decrees, with which he surprised even the members of his own party.

Three anti-Semitic laws completed the exclusion of the Hungarian Jews between 1938 and 1941. The first two laws made their economic situation more and more difficult; the Third Jewish Law, which was passed in 1941, however, was a real, Nuremberg-type, racial law introducing “race-protective” orders.

In July and August of 1941 nearly 16,000 Jews regarded as aliens or whose citizenship was stated to be unresolved, were deported to territories under German rule in Galicia where the Germans massacred them in the vicinity of Kamenec-Podolskij. This was the first “five-digit massacre” during the process of the Holocaust of the European Jewry. We do not have photos documenting this massacre. However, we have pictures about the second massacre which involved Hungarian Jews. In January 1942 in the Southern region (Délvidék, which was reclaimed from Yugoslavia) during an action taken against Serb partisans Hungarian gendarmeries murdered nearly 3,500 people. There were about 800 Jews among them. The gendarmeries shot their victims and threw their bodies into holes blown in the ice of the frozen-over Danube. Evidently, in order to frighten the civilians, they also hanged people in the public squares as we can see in the pictures.

Eichmann and his Sonderkommando of 200 men deported the Jews of the provinces to Auschwitz with the active help of the Hungarian clerks, policemen, solders and gendarmeries in the spring and early summer of 1944. The Jewry of the provinces, 437,000 people, made up more than fifty percent of the entire Hungarian Jewry. We have extremely few photos documenting this horrible “record achievement,” since Eichmann and his “experts” were not “able” to deport so many Jews in such a short period from any other European country (between May 15 and June 6 of 1944).

According to archival documents, sporadic newspaper sources, and testimonies of survivors, the majority of the gentiles did not even try to help the persecuted people. There were only a few people who participated actively in the persecution besides the officials and functionaries. Their estimated number is greater, however, than the number of those people who tried to help actively. The photos documenting the deportation show that it takes only a few gendarmeries to march the obedient Jews to the railway station, to the cattle cars. We know from archival documents that after the deportation, the citizens began the looting of the deserted ghettos. In some places they acted defying the martial law; and in other places they had official permission. Obviously, the looters of Kôszeg belonged to the second category, since they happily allowed the taking of pictures. Both the looters and the loot indicate, that in this case, poor people were taking the belongings of other poor people.

Miklós Horthy put an end to the deportation of the Jews on the 6th of July, 1944. The reasons are still not entirely clear. It is possible that his decision was motivated by the landing of the allied forces on the shores of Normandy, or the offensive of the Red Army, or he was afraid that the capital would have been destroyed by a carpet bombing if the Jews of Pest had had been deported. Eichmann had a fit, but without Hungarian help he was not able to continue shipping “raw material” to the death factory of Auschwitz.

Ferenc Szálasi, the leader of the Arrow-Cross Party and the Hungarist Movement came to power with the help of the Germans, after Miklós Horthy, the governor of Hungary, announced that he appealed for cease-fire. The members of his government, when their picture was taken, broke a tradition: they did not wear their Hungarian gala-dress. They put on simple civilian clothes. Maybe they had a premonition concerning their fate: the majority of them would be sentenced to death by the court of the Hungarian People within a period of less than one and a half years.

Nearly 200,000 Jews were terrified in Budapest by the coming into power of Szálasi’s Arrow-Cross men. The troops of the Red Army were not able to liberate the ghetto of Pest until the 18th of January, 1945. Up to then, hundreds of defenseless Jews were murdered by Arrow-Cross men every day as the photos show. Many Jews were tortured horribly before their death, others were simply shot and thrown into the Danube which was filled with drift-ice. They handed over nearly 70,000 Jews to the Germans for forced labor. They worked on the fortification system in the Sub-Alps in order to “protect” Vienna.

In the spring of 1945 Budapest was reduced to ruins as we can see in the photographs. Because of the meaningless war fought, on the Nazis’ side nearly one million lives were lost. From 825,000 Hungarian Jews 550,000 died, and some of the returning survivors emigrated within the next few years. Thus, in the place where one of the most flourishing Jewish communities of Middle-Eastern Europe once existed, now only approximately 5,000-70,000 Jews exist.

 

 

Intellectuals in the internment camp.
Intellectuals in the internment camp. Written on the picture: Some of the last Jewish members of the editorial staff of the “Pesti Hírlap,” who were working until the great change, and then they landed in the factory internment camp. From left to right: Imre Gyôri, the former editor of the paper, Gyula Vidor former political columnist, Béla Szabó, János Fleiner Fóti, the former “dreaded” critic, Lajos Réti, the younger brother of Katalin Karádi’s secretary, László Gál, the son of the actor Gyula Gál, and political contributor Ferenc Kemény.
Interned lawyers, actors and journalists
Interned lawyers, actors and journalists
Jewish intellectuals in the internment camp.
Jewish intellectuals in the internment camp.
Members of the editorial team of the newspaper
Members of the editorial team of the newspaper “Esti Kurir” in the internment camp (István Kardos was murdered).
Internment camp.
Internment camp. Written on the picture: “Some of the last Jewish ‘Mochikans’ of the Pester Lloyd in the factory internment camp.” From left to right: Ernô Geiringer, György Kecskeméti, István Keller, Péter Sugár, Gyula Morgernstern, Jewish former journalists.
Internment camp.
Internment camp. Written on the picture: “The last Jewish members of the editorial staff of the ‘Ujság’ in the factory internment camp.” From left to right: Zoltán Stób, Sándor Jemnitz, Ernô Halász, Géza Kônig, Endre György, Jenô Nádor.
Internment camp.
Internment camp. “The illustrious quartet (four-in-hand).” [written on the picture] The first man from the left is Mr. Rozsnyai the composer. He does not wear the yellow star because his wife is Christian. It did not help, however: he and his wife were murdered.
Ernô Ligeti was murdered.
Ernô Ligeti was murdered. Written on the picture: “Ernô Ligeti Lichtenstein, the former Jewish journalist and novelist in the factory internment camp.”
An article in the
An article in the “Harc” about the Jews in the internment camp. (Title: “Together the Entire Illustrious Company!”)
Leaders of banks and factories in the internment camp.
Leaders of banks and factories in the internment camp. Written on the picture: “These ‘big Jews’ also live in the internment camp: 1. Baron Samu Madarassy-Beck, the retired president of Leszámítoló Bank. 2. Emil Wolf, the former manager of the Chinoin chemical factory, who do not wear the yellow star even in the internment camp for Jews, because his wife is Christian. 3. Samu Weiner, the former ‘leader’ of the Jewish mill industry. 4. Károly Somogyi, the former co-owner of the Haasz and Somogyi hardware company.”
From the newspaper
From the newspaper “Harc.” The text written on the picture is abusive and sarcastic in the vein of anti-Semitic writing.
Internment camp.
Internment camp. Written on the picture: “Jewish women lying down in the factory internment camp.”
Distribution of dinner in the internment camp.
Distribution of dinner in the internment camp.
Internment camp.
Internment camp. A group in the internment camp. In the front stands Zoli, the famous dwarf clown of Budapest.
Internment camp.
Internment camp.
Dezsô Kellér, the famous master of ceremonies in forced labor.
Dezsô Kellér, the famous master of ceremonies in forced labor. None of the listeners seen in this picture survived (Nyírség, 1943).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: construction work (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: construction work (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the skeleton staff (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the skeleton staff (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: cooks: J.
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: cooks: J. Szitnyai (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: on the way to Russia (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: on the way to Russia (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the entire forced labor battalion (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the entire forced labor battalion (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: construction work (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: construction work (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: on the way to Russia (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: on the way to Russia (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: one of the officers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: one of the officers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the same officer (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: the same officer (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: shoemakers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: shoemakers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: kitchen (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: kitchen (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: camp fire (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: camp fire (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: a tableau (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: part of the camp (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: part of the camp (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: working on road construction (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: staff of officers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Scenes from the life of Jewish forced laborers: staff of officers (Riptinyec, 1940).
Ohrolruf camp.
Ohrolruf camp.
The center of the Arrow Cross Party at Andrássy street No.
The center of the Arrow Cross Party at Andrássy street No. 60: “the House of Fidelity.”
The center of the Arrow Cross Party under Andrássy street No.
The center of the Arrow Cross Party under Andrássy street No. 60: “the House of Fidelity.” (Partial enlargement of previous.)
The Arrow Cross Government (Ferenc Szálasi was the Prime Minister).
The Arrow Cross Government (Ferenc Szálasi was the Prime Minister).
The Szálasi Government.
The Szálasi Government.
Ferenc Szálasi enters the Castle of Buda.
Ferenc Szálasi enters the Castle of Buda.
Strolling people.
Strolling people.
The gate of a house at Kossuth Lajos Square no.
The gate of a house at Kossuth Lajos Square no. 18 is marked by a yellow star.
A Jewish woman clearing away rubble.
A Jewish woman clearing away rubble.
Moving into a house marked by a yellow star.
Moving into a house marked by a yellow star.
Jews being marched on the József ring (József körút) to the ghetto of Pest.
Jews being marched on the József ring (József körút) to the ghetto of Pest.
Handcuffing in Poland.
Handcuffing in Poland.
Many Jews who wanted to obtain a Schutzpass are queuing in front of the so called
Many Jews who wanted to obtain a Schutzpass are queuing in front of the so called “Glass House” (Budapest, Vadász street no. 29.) which was protected by the Swiss embassy.
School of Jewish children, refugees from Poland in Vác (1942-1943).
School of Jewish children, refugees from Poland in Vác (1942-1943).
The synagogue of Tarnopol which was set on fire by the Nazis.
The synagogue of Tarnopol which was set on fire by the Nazis.
Before being taken away.
Before being taken away.
Yellow star.
Yellow star.
A rabbi is forced to wash a car (Novy Sad, 1942).
A rabbi is forced to wash a car (Novy Sad, 1942).
Identity check by Arrow Cross men (still from film, 1955)
Identity check by Arrow Cross men. This is not a contemporaneous photo, but a still from the filmBudapest Spring (1955).
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses in Budapest.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses in Budapest.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses in Budapest.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses in Budapest.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men in Budapest.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men in Budapest.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men in Budapest.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men in Budapest.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victim of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses in Budapest.
The skull of a victim of Arrow Cross men.
The skull of a victim of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men. A mass of corpses.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men in the court of the Synagogue of Dohány street.
Jewish victims of Arrow Cross men in the court of the Synagogue of Dohány street.
Corpses in a concentration camp.
Corpses in a concentration camp.
Corpses in a concentration camp.
Corpses in a concentration camp.
The death of a Jewish forced laborer.
The death of a Jewish forced laborer.
Novy Sad, a street after shooting committed by the gendarmerie.
Novy Sad, a street after shooting committed by the gendarmerie.
Hungarian gendarmes are shooting Jews on the streets in Novy Sad.
Hungarian gendarmes are shooting Jews on the streets in Novy Sad.
Executions in Novy Sad in 1942.
Executions in Novy Sad in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanged Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Hanging (Novy Sad, 1942)
Hanging (Novy Sad, 1942)
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Executed Jews in the Southern region (Délvidék) in 1942.
Victims of the ghetto (Budapest, 19 January 1945).
Victims of the ghetto (Budapest, 19 January 1945).
A victim of the Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944).
A victim of the Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944).
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944)
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944)
A cart full of corpses (Budapest, 1945)
A cart full of corpses (Budapest, 1945)
Wagon full of corpses (Budapest, 1945)
Wagon full of corpses (Budapest, 1945)
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944-1945)
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944-1945)
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944-1945)
Victims of Arrow Cross men (Budapest, 1944-1945)
Murdered Jewish forced laborers at the end of 1944 in the Beregi forest at Füzesabony.
Murdered Jewish forced laborers at the end of 1944 in the Beregi forest at Füzesabony.
Exhumation of the bodies of Jewish forced laborers at Cservenka (November 5, 1957)
Exhumation of the bodies of Jewish forced laborers at Cservenka (November 5, 1957)
A group of objects found during the exhumation at Cservenka (November 5, 1957).
A group of objects found during the exhumation at Cservenka (November 5, 1957).
The identification of the corpse of 22 year old Magda Friedmann in Budapest.
The identification of the corpse of 22 year old Magda Friedmann in Budapest.
The grave-stone of Hanna Szenes in Budapest.
The grave-stone of Hanna Szenes in Budapest.
Patients and doctors murdered in the Jewish hospital in Maros street (Budapest, 1945).
Patients and doctors murdered in the Jewish hospital in Maros street (Budapest, 1945).
Corpse of a murdered Jew.
Corpse of a murdered Jew.
Funeral procession held for exhumed bodies of Jewish forced laborers (Budapest).
Funeral procession held for exhumed bodies of Jewish forced laborers (Budapest).
Exhumation from the depth of 60 cm in the forest of Kerecsend.
Exhumation from the depth of 60 cm in the forest of Kerecsend.
Exhumation in the forest of Kerecsend
Exhumation in the forest of Kerecsend
A corpse in a coffin in the forest of Kerecsend.
A corpse in a coffin in the forest of Kerecsend.
Re-examination: Dr. Németh
Re-examination: Dr. Németh and his colleague (in the forest of Kerecsend).
Exhumed corpse in the forest of Kerecsend.
Exhumed corpse in the forest of Kerecsend.
Corpses of a mother and her daughter in the forest of Kerecsend.
Corpses of a mother and her daughter in the forest of Kerecsend.
Taking 20 corpses to the cemetery of Eger from the forest of Kerecsend.
Taking 20 corpses to the cemetery of Eger from the forest of Kerecsend.
Coffins on the hill of the cemetery after the exhumation (Kerecsend).
Coffins on the hill of the cemetery after the exhumation (Kerecsend).
12 corpses in coffins (Kerecsend).
12 corpses in coffins (Kerecsend).
The lowering of the coffins to the grave (Eger).
The lowering of the coffins to the grave (Eger).
The funeral of the 26 martyrs in Eger.
The funeral of the 26 martyrs in Eger. They were murdered in the forest of Kerecsend. Mr. Székely the President of the Jewish Community of Eger delivers a speech.
The funeral of the 26 martyrs in Eger.
The funeral of the 26 martyrs in Eger. They were murdered in the forest of Kerecsend.
Tank, refugees
Tank, refugees
Street in the time of war.
Street in the time of war.
Taking photos of the victims in the ghetto (Budapest, 19.
Taking photos of the victims in the ghetto (Budapest, 19. January 1945).
Prisoners of war
Prisoners of war
Portrait of a victim of skin transplantation.
Portrait of a victim of skin transplantation.
Shoe sole made of a desecrated Torah.
Shoe sole made of a desecrated Torah.
Drum made from a desecrated Torah.
Drum made from a desecrated Torah.
The emptying of apartments of Jews in Sopron (1944).
The emptying of apartments of Jews in Sopron (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Jews marching towards the railway station in Kôszeg (1944).
Jews marching towards the railway station in Kôszeg (1944).
March of deportees to the railway station in Kôszeg (1944).
March of deportees to the railway station in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
Deportation of the Jewry of the provinces in Kôszeg (1944).
A hiding Jew.
A hiding Jew.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
Looting of the deserted ghetto in the provinces.
A ravaged home.
A ravaged home.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
March of deportees on the streets of Kôszeg in 1944.
Deportation: on the way to the railway station (Kôszeg, 1944).
Deportation: on the way to the railway station (Kôszeg, 1944).
Deportation (Balatonfüred, 1944).
Deportation (Balatonfüred, 1944).
Deportation (Balatonfüred, 1944).
Deportation (Balatonfüred, 1944).
Arrival at the concentration camp.
Arrival at the concentration camp.
Part of the camp.
Part of the camp.
Goldmark Hall (Budapest, 1945).
Goldmark Hall (Budapest, 1945).
Picture taken in Germany [?]
Picture taken in Germany [?]
The humiliating march of those who
The humiliating march of those who “dishonored the German race”.
Placard against Jewish lawyers and doctors.
Placard against Jewish lawyers and doctors.
A deportee (Auschwitz).
A deportee (Auschwitz).
Arrival at Auschwitz (1944).
Arrival at Auschwitz (1944).
A group of people arriving at Auschwitz (1944).
A group of people arriving at Auschwitz (1944).
Medical experiment.
Medical experiment.
A small child with tattooed arm.
A small child with tattooed arm.
People lined up to celebrate in a camp after the Second World War.
People lined up to celebrate in a camp after the Second World War.
Wreaths for the memory of the martyrs.
Wreaths for the memory of the martyrs.
Shooting in the back of the neck.
Shooting in the back of the neck.
SS execution.
SS execution.
Victim in a concentration camp.
Victim in a concentration camp.
Heap of corpses.
Heap of corpses.
A dead person beside the rails.
A dead person beside the rails.
Corpses in Dachau.
Corpses in Dachau.
Interior of a barrack (Dachau).
Interior of a barrack (Dachau).
Heap of corpses in Dachau.
Heap of corpses in Dachau.
Corpses in Dachau.
Corpses in Dachau.
Corpses in Dachau.
Corpses in Dachau.
Victims in Dachau.
Victims in Dachau.
Victims in Dachau.
Victims in Dachau.

Hungary admits Holocaust role

Hungary admits Holocaust role

January 27, 2014

Marton Dunai

Holocaust survivor and historian Randolph Braham.

Holocaust survivor and historian Randolph Braham. Photo: AP

Budapest: Hungarians collaborated with Nazis in sending nearly half a million Jews to their deaths, Hungary’s President said, in a rare public acknowledgement of a wartime past that Jewish groups say is often glossed over.

Earlier on Sunday, an American historian said he was returning an award he received from the previous head of state in protest at what he called the government’s attempt to erase Hungary’s role in the Holocaust.

In a statement prepared for Monday’s Holocaust Memorial Day, President Janos Ader said that if the war had gone according to the plans of Adolf Hitler and his Hungarian fascist allies, Jews would have been exterminated completely from Hungary.

The arrival and processing of a transport of Jewish people at Auschwitz-Birkenau in May 1944.

The arrival and processing of a transport of Jewish people at Auschwitz-Birkenau in May 1944. Photo: AP/Yad Vashem Photo Archives

“Auschwitz may be hundreds of kilometres from Hungary but it is part of Hungarian history,” Mr Ader wrote. “This death camp was the scene of the inhumane suffering, humiliation and death of nearly half a million of our compatriots.”

Jewish groups have criticised the centre-right government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban for what they see as its lacklustre attempt to fight anti-Semitism.

A Jewish group has threatened to boycott Holocaust commemorations over plans to erect a monument to the German occupation in 1944. It said that pushed the blame for the genocide solely onto Germans, obscuring the role of Hungarians.

A Hungarian woman at the wall of victims at the Holocaust Museum in Budapest.

A Hungarian woman at the wall of victims at the Holocaust Museum in Budapest. Photo: AFP

Mr Orban, the favourite to win re-election in April, has said he would do everything to stamp out growing anti-Semitism in a country where a far-right party, Jobbik, again openly uses anti-Semitic rhetoric and last November unveiled a statue of wartime leader Miklos Horthy, an ally of Hitler.

“Seventy years ago, after our nation’s German occupation, the Nazi overlords and the Hungarian authorities that collaborated with them seemed to fulfil the will of Hitler’s Nazi Germany,” Mr Ader wrote. “In barely half a year they mercilessly completed ghettos and deported almost the entire rural Jewry.”

Because the deportations were halted in July 1944, tens of thousands of Jews were spared the gas chamber, mostly in Budapest, and the central European capital today is home to the largest indigenous Jewish community in Europe.

Before Mr Ader’s statement was released, veteran Romanian-born historian Randolph Braham, who settled in the United States after World War II, said he was returning Hungary’s Order of Merit which he received in 2011 for his work, including on the Hungarian Holocaust.

“I have followed the latest developments in Hungary with great concern,” Mr Braham wrote in an open letter posted on several news websites. “I was shocked, as were surely others, at the past few years’ campaign to whitewash history.”

“They wish … to excuse Hungary from the responsibility for the active role it played in annihilating nearly 600,000 of its Jewish citizens.”

In Hungary the Holocaust began years before it came under direct German occupation in 1944. Under Horthy, there were anti-Jewish pogroms, several reported instances of mass killings and the deportation of thousands of Jews to labour camps.

Occupying German forces then received willing help from Hungarian authorities in deporting 437,000 Jews within a few weeks in 1944.

“[The] national monument to the German occupation … is a cowardly attempt to deflect attention from the role the Horthy regime played in the annihilation of Jews,” Mr Braham wrote. “It blurs the Holocaust with what they say is the suffering of Hungarians during the German occupation … which was met with general applause rather than resistance, as proven by historical facts.”

Reuters

The Hungarian Holocaust: 70 Years Later

 CEU hosted “The Hungarian Holocaust: Seventy Years Later” conference on April 6, bringing together the top scholars in the field to share their research on the leadup to the atrocity, the responsible actors, the effects of the destruction, and the ways in which the Hungarian Holocaust is remembered and commemorated.

CEU President and Rector John Shattuck opened the event, calling it a “momentous, solemn and far-reaching occasion for those who have the capacity to look deep into history and to understand it.” The conference is held every 10 years in conjunction with a related conference in the U.S. Shattuck expressed pride in CEU as the conference’s sole sponsor and for the dual goals of the University and the conference in engaging in the pursuit of truth and desire for an honest engagement with history. He underscored the enormous importance of the conference proceedings, “so that record of what actually happened cannot be twisted and shaded against the truth that we all know.”

Professor Andras Kovacs, who teaches both in CEU’s Jewish Studies and Nationalism Programs, preceded the panels with a story of a very good friend whose personal history Kovacs never knew until he heard it from another source. The friend was born after the war to a Hungarian woman whose husband had been sent to a labor camp before she was snatched from her home by the Arrow Cross, forcing her to leave her 18-month-old son behind. Although at first, neighbors tried to care for the child, he eventually died of starvation before his mother returned to Hungary. Kovacs’s friend was the younger brother of the child who died, but he had never shared the story. The secrecy of such stories was the norm, not only just after the war, but throughout the communist regime, when it was essentially illegal to discuss the Holocaust, despite the Soviet portrayal of the Germans were relentless tyrants.

Renowned author and Holocaust scholar Randolph Braham gave the keynote address via taped video message from the U.S. “This conference is being held at a significant juncture in the history of Hungary and Hungarian Jewry, on the 70th anniversary of the Holocaust,” said Braham, a distinguished professor emeritus of political science at the City College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. “The destruction of Hungarian Jewry, on the eve of Allied victory, represents one of the most controversial chapters in the history of the ‘Final Solution’ in Europe.”

He went on to note that most of the 565,000 Hungarian victims considered themselves loyal Magyars (Hungarians) of the Jewish faith, citizens of a country that has yet to acknowledge a role in the Holocaust, let alone apologize.

“It is this failure to honestly and courageously confront the past that largely contributed to the increasingly virulent assault on the historical memory of the Holocaust,” Braham said. “Following the systemic change of 1989, the leaders of the successive democratically-elected governments, while aware of the reality of the Holocaust, have, with a few exceptions, consistently pursued policies that one, aim to deflect attention from the Holocaust by focusing on the positive experiences of the Jews in their emancipation in 1867 and on the rescue activities of the relatively few Christian Hungarians during the German occupation, including [Regent Miklos] Horthy’s rescue: the halting of deportations in early July 1944. These policies also strove to bring about the rehabilitation of the Horthy era and the revitalization of the national Christian principles that had guided it. Finally, these policies were designed to absolve Hungary of any guilt for the Holocaust by placing ultimate and exclusive responsibility onto the Germans.”

In the first panel, scholars addressed “The Road to the Holocaust,” dissecting official policy of the Hungarian government, including the 1920 “numerus clausus” law, the first to place strict quotas on the number of Jews who could attend university.

CEU Professor Maria Kovacs, director of the Nationalism Studies Program who published a groundbreaking book on numerus clausus in 2012, noted that historians can neither confirm nor deny a straight line between the anti-Semitism of the 1920s and that of the 1940s. Kovacs is, instead, very interested in whether or not – in the history of Horthy regime – a serious attempt was made to reconsider the 1920 Jewish quota or to try to put an end to discrimination.

“It is important because, 18 years later, the 1920 legislation served as a prototype legislation for the new anti-Jewish law,” she said. “Proponents of the 1920 university quota were very explicit in that they intended to expand it to all income-earning occupations.”

Interestingly, Kovacs contrasted this with U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s successful efforts to curb discrimination during the same era. In Hungary, Prime Minister Istvan Bethlen’s 1928 reform of numerus clausus (which eased the quotas somewhat) was meant to satisfy foreign demands but not to genuinely eliminate discrimination, Kovacs said. “It was a phony paper reform. Lower-level government decrees were then implemented [to continue discrimination].”

Krisztian Ungvary, a research fellow at the Institute for the History of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, discussed decision-making regarding the deportations of Hungarian Jews.
He believes that the deportations were not part of a master plan, but a

series of political decisions made by Hungarian authorities. “When Germans were sent here, it wasn’t even clear that they had to collect Jews and deport them,” Ungvary said. “Everything that happened here did so in strong cooperation with Hungarian authorities. There was no German office that would’ve taken over Hungarian administrative tasks, there were liaisons.” In fact, Ungvary noted, according to phone books, the number of those Hungarians who worked with Nazi leader Adolph Eichmann on deportation numbered 60 and the whole of the Nazi staff in Hungary was no more than 200.

Regarding the effects on Jewish society after the war, CEU Professor Emeritus of History Viktor Karady reviewed his data on how many doctors had disappeared as a result of the Holocaust. Because Jews in the countryside were targeted first, many doctors moved to Budapest. “The losses of the Jewish groups is much bigger than Christian groups,” Karady said. “It is a very clear distinction which we have to make here between the various rates of losses.” Karady found that the survival rate of female Jewish doctors was higher than male and also noted that social status mattered. He also studied records of those who changed their surnames from Jewish names to Hungarian names to try to avoid persecution.

Karady’s colleague Peter Tibor Nagy, head of the Wesley Research Center for Sociology of Church and Religion, reviewed similar data to determine the different kinds of social capital that could affect survival rates. “How can you hide? What kind of habits are necessary for this?” he asked. The level of education and chosen profession mattered as well as how well Jews were integrated into Christian society.

The final panel dealt with remembrance and commemoration of the Holocaust in Hungary. Gabor Gyani, who teaches at both CEU and Eotvos Lorand University, again pointed out that many commemorations have focused on rescuers and not victims. Under communism, it was essentially forbidden to discuss the Holocaust, so many memories were lost. “Personal biographic narratives have emotional impact,” Gyani said. “The Holocaust experience impacts the national myths. This might have led to self-scrutiny [for Hungary].”

Andrea Peto, CEU associate professor of gender studies, is using the Shoah Foundation’s Visual History Archive to study personal recollections of Hungary’s people’s tribunals that tried members of the Arrow Cross after the war. Peto has reviewed 800 interviews and looked carefully at how the participants talked about the trials, how they are narrating, and how they discuss their participation in the legal process. “These stories are about revenge and satisfaction – they are atypical for Holocaust stories,” Peto said. In her related paper, she argues for understanding the different kind of truths constructed by digital storytelling. “Most damage is done by historians who think they know the truth and are the only ones who can share the truths,” she said. “Looking at memories of the trials warns us how necessary it is to recognize the fragility of memory.”

For full conference program and abstracts, see attachment.

Watch Randolph Braham’s keynote address here.